There is a place in hell for Cait Sith

[Gouty]

(Contains spoilers for Final Fantasy 7)
What in God’s name is going on around here? I’m currently playing through Final Fantasy 7 for the second time in my life, really trying to comprehend every aspect of this nutty story but this Cait Sith character is beyond me. Hopefully some of you FF enthusiasts can clear this up. So this capped, marshmallow-riding kitten is just a robot being controlled from afar, sent out by Shinra to spy on and ultimately betray our party. Ok got that. We let this complete stranger join our group simply because the tubby bastard wants to. Idiotic, but OK, I’m still with you. Sometime later in the Temple of The Ancients, Cait Sith volunteers himself for the suicide mission of obtaining the black materia in hopes of redeeming himself. Be my guest, nobody’s going to miss you. The temple implodes and thus the black materia is up for our grabs. No sooner than Cloud picks it up, another Cait Sith appears and as a form of introduction says something completely unsatisfactory and mindless like “Hi, I’m a new Cait Sith”. Now just what the hell is going on around here? Is this one being controlled by the same person or is it the puppet of another? Either way it makes absolutely no sense. Lets say that it is the same person that controlled the first. That would still make him a traitor and completely undermines his supposed selfless quasi-suicide. Now lets pretend that Cait is being controlled by someone new. How in the hell did he find us and what is he doing there? Secondly, we’d have absolutely no background on this guy, why would we ever trust him?
As if his worthlessness in battle weren’t enough, we also have to endure this insensitive and tactless sack of crap just after Aeris’s death. I unfortunately had Cait and Barret in my party when this portion of the story took place. (I’m an equal leveling up opportunity kind of guy) Barret gave a silent and solemn shake of the head, put his hand on Cloud’s shoulder and walked away. Caith Sith on the other hand danced a f*@#$!# jig, hopping from foot to foot, flapping his arms in an attempt to cheer him up, as though his favorite goldfish had died. Now that’s class. He wasn’t done by a long shot. Just seconds after those events, Cloud address the group warning them of the dangers they’re in simply continuing to travel with him. Caith Sith, never missing a opportunity to offend, asks “Is there something wrong?” Now if you’re asking if there’s anything wrong other than Aeris’s murder and the fate of the world being in jeopardy, no I don’t think there is. Now run along and go back to eating margarine sticks and playing with your Duplo blocks.
I wish dearly it could have been Cait Sith that was impaled by Sephiroth’s blade, exposing his delicious, creamy nugget center. Cloud, Aeris, Sephiroth and the rest of the crew could have shared this treat together, thus showing everyone they really aren’t much different and that there isn’t any reason to fight. The end!
-The Artist Formerly Know As Cheezitmonkey-

[Jet Black]

Gouty, I have to admit, you're right.

For some on this board I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I have to say this until it sticks. RPG stories, half the time, make very little sense. They are often convoluted stories bloated up to the max all centered around a very simple theme, or problem.

But no, we can't just have a mission and stick with it, we have to have nonsense laden twist, after twist, just to keep us entertained. Personally, I'd like it if characters died ONCE and that was it.

I know the infamous cait sith scene(s) your talking about, and I have to agree with you. Just as with many other RPGs, death just isn't death, and a story doesn't need to follow logic to keep plowing along.

(mild FFX spoiler)
FFX - where Rikku joins your party is equally idiotic. Look, I have nothing against her, but did she NOT just try to kill you underwater mere moments ago? She admits it. I'd understand if the beyatch didn't know it was Tidus, but puh-leez! And then she jumps onboard the team without a second thought.
(END of mild FFX spoiler)

Why can't a story makes sense from start to finish. It's like different teams of writers all work on their own parts of the game world, then when they're all finished they get together and try to connect the dots between what seems like completely unrelated story points.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. There are better ways to tell a story, and a simple story doesn't have to be so damn convoluted and obtuse. It makes for a great twist when the mission you thought you were on is derailed. But to throw twists and illogic at you at every new town makes for nothing but a trip down the rabbit hole.

Anything is up for grabs.

Instead of a good story, we get a patchwork quilt of ideas that would work well on their own, but not together.

Cait Sith, does have a special place in hell. Personally, he didn't do anything for me. But just like Gouty, I'm an equal opportunity leveling up kinda gamer. I know the crap they pull on you in these games, and you have to be ready for characters to simply drop off the radar and leave to see their momma, feed the cat, or reunite with an old flame.

Excuse me you idiot, is not the world on the line?

Cait Sith was bad comedy relief when no comedy relief was even needed. Cid Highwind was the best phuecking comedy relief in FF7.

But let's look at this from another angle......

It's a TOY. yes, a TOY. And it walks around on it's own.

Isn't that strange, by itself? Maybe that'll work at Gold Saucer, but ANYWHERE else? I can't see how anyone in a town would look at me with a straight face when I ask is there an Inn I can sleep at for the night.

But hey, whatcha' gonna do? It's Final FANTASY.....logic? What's that?

[Celanon]

The Cait Sith is one of many lame moments in FFVII - it's supposed to be the same person controlling a new version of Cait Sith (Cait Sith II), who just happened to have a duplicate lying nearby, which completely kills any sort of drama and sense of self-sacrifice. It's lame, really really lame. That's the only answer I can think of. FFVII, for all the praise people heap on it, has some moments that even I, who is really tolerant of melodramatic fluff, find really obnoxiously stupid. Cait Sith II tops the list. I mean, that's like having Tellah die in FFIV and some old coot run up and say: "I'm Tellah's twin brother! Let me join you!"

FFX SPOILERS
As far as Rikku joining the party, I don't see where the confusion is at all. Upon finding out that she didn't have a chance in hell of rescuing Yuna from her pilgrimage due to her rather impressive group of guardians, Rikku decides to at the very least get close to the party and hopefully stop the pilgrimage using subversion instead of force. Her goal when she attacked and when she joined is exactly the same - to stop the pilgrimage from occuring. The Al Bhed knew they didn't have a chance of overpowering the party, so.. at the very least, get someone in who can 1) not only help protect the summoner against fiends (always could use help) but 2) possibly sabotage the pilgrimage or convince the summoner to stop. Makes perfect sense to me

But maybe it's just me.. I certainly have heard people complain about that scene before, and each time I just scratch my head and wonder why it made perfect sense to me, then and now.

[Gouty]

Yeah, while we’re at it there’s so much more I want to bitch about! What the hell is up with that reoccurring Yuffie/Selphie/Rikku character and their collective uselessness? It’s the same freaking character! Yuffie, so obviously an afterthought to raise the character count in 7 is made an option if you even want her in the group. Safe to say she does nothing to advance the overall plot. Now it’s been a few years sense I played through 8 but from what I recall Selphie just chases you down to deliver some news and then welcomes herself to the group, again having no impact in combat or the story. Jet Black did a fine job of exposing the Rikku facade, no need to go there. Now what I’d like to see in FF XII is another one of these unoriginal spunky clones, lets call her Yusphiku, that actually turns out to be a robot controlled by someone in another FF game. I’d like to see those writers try to work that one out, not that they’d care if it made any sense. Just so long as it felt like an epic.
I’ve got many more problems with the series but this hypocrite has some more FF7 to play. Join in everyone, let’s all bash FF even though we love it dearly!
-The Artist Formerly Known As Cheezitmonkey-

[Jet Black]

(more FFX spoilers)

Celly, I know what you said is true.

And you're right.....from the gamers pov.

But the characters in the story didn't know that from a hill of beans. In fact, Tidus was the only person who knew her. Tidus mentioned her before, but that was when nobody believed a word that came out his Zanarkin mouth.

It's fine that she wants to sign up to get close to Yuna. But Yuna jumps on this idea like lice on a hippie. She's on a pilgrimage and her guardians will lay down their lives for her. In effect, signing up as guardian you very well might DIE! But happy-go-lucky Yuna just keeps adding the members to the death march like a drunken Irish parade.

Then later on, she acts all sorry that she dragged everyone into this. What the phueck!? Women.

Add to the fact, that Yuna ASKED all of her guardians to join up - except Rikku. She wanted Tidus to join - Wakka was against it, but she got her wish. She wanted Aaron to join, and everyone liked that idea. But Rikku? Tidus got her in on a song and a dance. She didn't have any proof she could even fight. Just Tidus' word. If you call that a "plan", then it's no wonder the Albed are near extinct.

It's even worse when Rikku has the mark of Albed literally written on her face (the spiral eyes) and Wakka, who hates the Albed doesn't even see it. Suddenly, the MARKSMAN of the party, able to hit a flying creature from 40+ yards, is phuecking blind!

Now I'm not stupid, and yes, I know it's part of the story. But for a game clocking in at 40, 50, 60+ hours, you would think they could work that part in better than that. You can have a whole scene where this was plotted by the Albed.......or at least a flashback, once Rikku is busted, and she has to confess. But NO....we get Albed attack, after attack. Albed boss, after boss.

Tidus"Hey, this is the person who saved my life when I first came to Spira."

Yuna "Oh, that's so nice." (thinking who is this beeyatch trying to steal my man!...didn't I just do a love scene video with him, now he's falling all over this coochie in daisy duke hot pants up to her crotch!)

No, Gouty is right.......basically, Rikku was the Cait Sith of FFX. But for better reasons.

And again, this is where I go off. Any game, at such an extreme length of time that can't get the story straight is screwing up something! I mean, a movie can convey everything in two hours, but a 40+ hour game can't even sew up all the loose ends!

And that's why you get silly characters like Cait Sith. I don't mean him no serious disrespect. Like Gouty said, we love this series and play it day and night. But that don't mean we're dumb as posts, either. I can love something and still have problems with it.

And the story lines and characters in FF have problems.

[Celanon]

Hey now, you're not going to get me saying that Final Fantasy is devoid of problems - quite the contrary, the story-telling is chock full of 'em. But I really don't think Rikku was all that bad, certainly not nearly the level of Cait Sith II. Though my memory is foggy, I could have sworn that Yuna knew Rikku was her cousin, and that Yuna, Rikku, and Lulu had a conversation off camera (you see it, but don't hear it). Additionally, Auron had either the last say or a really large say, and given his motives, it's not surprising he let her in (I remember a scene where he looks down, they focus in on her eyes, and then he gruffly says yes or something). I didn't mean to imply that the Al Bhed really had a plan together either (more that from an Al Bhed point of view, this could be thought as a good idea), since I think that Rikku's acting sorta on her own - doesn't she have to talk to Brother later on or something? Been awhile. Eh.

Like I said, I'm not denying problems or intending, but Rikku, at least, wasn't even close to a large one for me. In fact, at that point in the game, I thought she had a better motivation for being in the group than Wakka, Lulu, and Khimari, all three of which were just sorta there. At that point, Rikku's motivations and joining was alot more interesting than: "WE HELPED RAISE YUNA AND THUS WE HELP HER AS A GUARDIAN!!!!" Later I got to hear what was up with the three, but before, just there.

To each their own though.

At least we can both agree that Cait SIth II was lame .

[Havblue]

I'd say Cid and the Al Bhed are the Cait Sith of FFX.

Summoners: We want to sacrifice ourselves to save the world!

Al Bhed: No!!! Sacrificing yourself for any reason is wrong and we're going to stop you even though it's none of our business and your deaths save many more lives in the long run anyway!

Couldn't they find a compelling reason to make the Al Bhed disagreeable like they did with the Guado and their Guado business?

Speaking of things in FFX that make no sense, what's with the dire need to send everyone after they die anyway? How does it work out that every citizen of Spira is basically invincible, being able to die a million times and crawl back for more every time?

[AzuRE Rebirth]

Each of the past four Final Fantasies has had some aspect that did not please me in one form or another. FFX was, as mentioned, Rikku's entire presence. FFIX was, well, alot of things (I never caught on to FFIX, and as such it remains a weaker link in the FF chain for me). FFVIII was the age group given to the main characters (Squall, Seifer, and Quistis are 18? Selphie is 16? Irvine is 17? WTF??), the visuals of some of the summons (Cactuar can dish out 4000 damage, but that has got to be one of the crappiest looking summons ever...aside from Tonberry), and how Squall spent the first 3 discs making Hayden Christensan in Attack of the Clones look like Al Pacino. And FFVII, despite being my personally favorite Final Fantasy, gives the Golden Raspberry to the pathetic Cait Sith.

Cait Sith was NEVER in my parties (except where the situation was unavoidable, such as the introduction at Gold Saucer), as I believe in brute power and agility over balancing the force. Cait Sith really had no place in my party, and if it weren't part of the story I would've skipped right over acquiring "it" to join me. I always had the assumption that the second Cait Sith was in fact the real deal, a cat named Cait Sith who rides on a giant...whatever that is, as opposed to being another toy for Shinra's use. If the second were in fact a toy, I'm sure it could've been "hiding in the wings" following the original should such an occurance happen (i.e. death). Again, this is Final Fantasy. You can summon a dragon that will incinerate half the earth just to attack one person. I just relied on Cid's stark sarcasm and brash wit to save me.

***FFVIII SPOILER***
The power over balance rule has gotten me into heaps of trouble, especially at the end of Final Fantasy VIII. In Ultimecia's Castle when you divide into two parties and have to use both during boss fights and regular random battles (My Uber Party of Squall, Quistis, and Irvine vs. my B-Squad of Selphie, Rinoa, and Zell), as well as the battle of Ultimecia herself. When she rose up and chimed "Whom shall I randomly choose to destroy first?", I thought "Oh shit..." because naturally she chose two members of my B-Squad and sent them to their grave in a heartbeat. That was the only occassion where I learned that balance can be a good thing (Selphie had no GF's, Squall had five. It was pretty bad).
***END SPOILER***

Cloud, Cid, and Barret have always aided me in defeating both the Jenova Synthesis and the three forms of Sepharoth (ok, two since only Cloud fights the final form). The image of Cait Sith giving a victory dance at the defeat of Safer Sepharoth does not come to mind, but the image of the thirteen Knights of the Round dishing out ultimate hurt to the poster-boy alley cat does. Too bad that's a final fantasy I'll never see....

[Epic Juicebox]

There was a time when I would've defended every aspect of Square's cornerstone series, but that time has been behind me since the first time I met the loveable cat and marshmallow duo. I couldn't agree more with everything posted on this thread in reference to the Shinra spy and his equally annoying second incarnation... why didn't they have an Aeris II? Anyway, I don't so much have anything to add on that particular topic. Instead, I want to talk about something that has yet to be brought up...

In Final Fantasy IX (which is my favorite installment in the series - call me crazy, but I like to see a fantasy series stay true to what it established itself as rather than try to evolve into a sci-fi series) there is a character that is almost avoidable, but in the end inevitable... the adorble Quina! What a waste of so much programming! Not only are more than half of his/her Blue Magic skills useless, but who wants to see a big pink androgenous blob galavant around in constant search of something to eat?! There were so many dramatic scenes in the game that are completely ruined by the presence of this ill attempt at comic relief. I'd rather see Vivi trip and fall a few more times and avoid hearing "Oooh! Mushroom! I eat!" And on that note...

Anyone got any thoughts on Square's movement into the sci-fi genre with the series? I'd start a new thread about it, but this is something that seems to bug me and nobody else. I guess I'm just picky like that.

[Gouty]

If you aren’t a fan of the scifi thing, at least it isn’t a continuing progression. As they’ve shown with IX and XII, they aren’t afraid to mix it up. I honestly don’t care either way, though if I’d wish the ol’ spacecraft syndrome on any, it would have been XII. The medieval style just seems to be the norm with MMOPRG’s. Not to mention if you have more technology, then you’re gonna have more options and variety. In world full of laser guns you can still have a black powder riffle, but it doesn’t work the other way around.
As far as art direction goes, I’m not a fan of the style 8 and 10 brought forth. They can keep their properly proportioned characters and squeaky clean looks, I love the grit of 6, 7 and 9.

Even more upsetting than the art however was 10's battle system. I can’t understand why everyone reveled in it’s said jump of strategic options. I’m not bitching about the loss of the ATB system, I’m all for change in videogames so long as you’re making an improvement. I thought it was incredibly lame that every character had a particular disposition to a certain type of enemy. Wakka’s turf were the flying one eyed bats, the wolves being Tidus’s forte while Auron dished it out to the large, lumbering beasts and so on. What happens when Tidus goes toe to toe with a dragon? Very little, he’s made all but useless thanks to this wonderful new fighting system. Auron decides he wants to help the team rid themselves of a swarm of bats but can’t seem to even make contact, his miss ratio skyrocketing thanks again to this wonderful new way of combat. This isn’t strategy folks, this is pigeonholing your options and a total pain in the ass. Oh look, it’s a pack of small, four legged animals, looks like I better get Tidus out. I hope to god this paper rock scissors system is canned.
Possibly even worse than the fighting is the sphere grid. But it allows complete customization you cry. So did Tactics without ever having to go against the inherent grain of your character. Sure you can work to make Lulu a physical fighter, more so than what she would have been otherwise, but she’ll never be as good a fighter as Kimahri. So if it pleases you, yes you can work your ass off to make these characters specialize in areas they’ll never excel in. Wonderful. They finally did away with the archaic act of leveling up. Sounds good doesn’t it? Hardly. The only thing that meant in FFX is that now all the tiny jump in attributes like luck and speed have to be done manually, one by one. Talk about tedious. I’d rather the game just did that for me like in the previous games. It’s not as though giving us the option to increase these attributes changes anything, if you’re interested in finishing the game you still have to level up, just now more slowly, piece by piece. In Tactics if there was a particular skill you were after, all you had to do was access a few quick menus and it was yours, you could spend your skill points on whatever however. The lame sphere grid however makes you scour the damn thing in search of some arbitrarily placed skill and then waste your day just trying to reach it.
FFX having both a week fighting and leveling system, you’d think they’d get something else right. Why then were there only a handful of summons, spells/abilities/ and enemy types. Most every other FF (Tactics, 6, 7 and 9) completely blew this game out of the water in every one of those categories. Fighting with all seven of my summons was always a bore. Instead of awaiting my next turn with three characters, I now have to consolidate my boredom into one hulking animal with even less options in combat than the humans. Thanks but no thanks. The spells and abilities were appallingly sparse as well. They just barely covered the basics with your ice/fire/lighting, haste, life, cure, and ultima. I’m sure there were a few more but you can’t even argue the numbers against older FF’s. Remember all the cool options you had Tactics and FF7? Looking back on X all I can remember fighting were the same three or four beasts the entire way through. You’ve got your wolves, your flying one eyed bats and your occasional big fella. What a thrilling spectrum of adversaries. Again there is no case to be made when put head to head with the older FF’s.
All that’s left now is the story to make this one completely inferior to any and all Final Fantasy’s before it. I didn’t care for it, but it was a functioning and workable plot, so really is just a matter of personal taste, therefore I don’t despise it like I do the rest of the game.
When I started writing I really didn’t intend for this to be such a lengthy bashing of FFX. I must have had some pent up rage over this one. My apologies.
-The Artist Formerly Known As Cheezitmonkey-

[Jet Black]

Great read Gouty.

For the record, I played the International version of FFX. Thus, I used the "advanced" sphere board. This allowed you to shape a character in many ways, and you were not stuck on a track until you found a "special Sphere" to hop around the board. Maybe Square saw how limiting the original sphere board was. However, with the international version, you can go from bad, to worse, REAL QUICK!

If you didn't have a game plan starting out, you often ended up with very bland characters. This happened to me, at the half way point in the game, when I realized I was a Jack-of-all-trades, and a Master-of-none. Fighting became a chore, and I had no single powerhouse to mop up the place when I got in trouble.

However, instead of a single powerhouse, I had the exact reverse......which leads me to this statement by our FF lovin' Gouty......

Sure you can work to make Lulu a physical fighter, more so than what she would have been otherwise, but she’ll never be as good a fighter as Kimahri.

Okay, everyone, I want you to listen up. This is an important moment in your gaming life. Jet Black is about to make a public service announcement to the free world.........

ATTENTION: "Gouty has lost his freakin' mind!"

Kimahri, a good fighter? God, I wish I was playing your game. Not only was this the weakest link in my party, I'm tempted to say Cait Sith had more strength in his marshmellow body! Kimahri was SO weak....so utterly useless and so pathetic, no good, blue H.R. Puff-n-Stuff wannabee looking, broken horned, worthless, Lancet HP for a few hundred points..........Gah! Don't get me started!

In other words, I hated this punk donkey and the horse he rode in on.

I have watched and talked with two other FFX gamers and they had the same conclusion - and they were playing the American FFX, where the sphere boards plays to Kimahri's strengths!! This guy is gay - in a bad way - has NO play - and needs to go away - or he will have to pay! Kimahri is just another Quina absorbing WEAK monster abilities.

The ONLY think Kimahri was good for was a TARGET. When I didn't want a spell, or status affect to hit the characters I really wanted, I'd put the overgrown blue teletubbie in - then switch him out. Even when he died he was useless. Just carrion sitting on my battlefield that I couldn't kick off the screen. I hated using Life on him....what a waste!

(sigh)...sorry about that.....I guess I also have some latent desire to blow off some FFX steam. Hah!

[Gouty]

Hey Jet Black, I don’t know what to tell you, in my game Kimahri was every bit as strong as his physical build would suggest. In fact, he was the single most potent physical fighter in the group with Wakka oddly enough at times competing with Auron for second. But no matter how you slice it, FFX was not my cup of tea. It’s a small wonder I was able to finish it.

[Havblue]

Gouty, JB, which path did you follow for Kimahri? I'd be inclined to gree with JB that he stunk. This wasn't a result of a lack of strength though but a lack of specialization towards certain enemies. Every other character in the game was basically a one-hit killer.

What's the "best" path with him anyway?

[AzuRE Rebirth]

Originally posted by Havblue
"Kurse you Game Kritics"

A silent nod to Sorceress Ultimecia, Hav? I'll give her credit for not knowing when to just plain die (you beat my human form, fight my summon...you beat my summon, fight us junctioned as one... you beat us in two forms junctioned together, but wait I have a "true" form....). Never have I wanted to rip an enemy a new one more than I did her, and the only other credit in that game I can give "not gonna die yet" props to is the Omega Weapon and its 1.5 million HP.

This is why I use my Uber Party vs. B-Squad fighting strategy. Call it blind rage, I guess.

[fflover2002]

That is the same way i think becasue i was fighting sephtroth(i forgot how to spell his name) and he did his slot limit break and that instant death thing killed my whole party.So i had to start my whole game over because i only used him,cloud and vincent so everyone else was weak.So i really think that is a stupid limit break but he does have that one that instantly kills your enemies (even bosses) but all in all he suck.I also heard a rumor that he was in kindom hearts, but i don't think that is true.