View Single Post
Old 02-08-2007, 11:42 AM   #41
Mike Doolittle
Telling people how it is
Mike Doolittle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a shoe with my old lady
Posts: 3,758
Rep Power: 22 Mike Doolittle is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to Mike Doolittle
Re: The Root of all Evil/Trobule With Atheism

Originally Posted by Avptallarita View Post
This is incorrect. Our ignorance of how the universe works is not evidence of the supernatural. It's much more plausible to believe that we don't know everything about the natural than to assume the existence of a supernatural.

We've covered this before but you seem to return to this nevertheless. However much you claim not to be using a God-of-the-gaps theory, you seem to justify a lot of your propositions by means of the failure of other theories to provide a comprehensive picture of things, rather than by means of positive argumentations or proof.
Not necessarily, and I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying here. The "gap" is a limit of science. Clearly, there are limitations of science. A method that is based on observance of natural law cannot study anything that transcends those laws. Yet we know that for our finite universe to have come into existence, something infinite and transcendent of those laws must exist. Our natural laws are but an insulated corridor through which we experience consciousness.

I'm an atheist and I do believe in "purpose". I simply call it morality, and I do think it is objective and universal. It's just that I don't see how you determine it to be given to us from the outside, when it's clearly something that I feel inside me. i.e. why can't this purpose be inherent in our being, rather than inscribed in our becoming?
It's both. You say that you feel it inside you, and of course you do, because you are spiritual being innately connected to this universal consciousness we call God. A Dawkins-esque atheist might say that what we are, and what we experience as consciousness, is simply the byproduct of natural laws, and that's true. But those explanations are simply a map, an observation of the order of the universe. But without consciousness, order can't arise out of chaos. The intuition you feel is of a consciousness transcendent of your physical self.

Originally Posted by Nicato
You say that belief in gods are reasonable yet you've conceded that you lack evidence for your god of choice.
That's not what I've said. If God is transcendent of natural law, how could he be known through observation of natural law alone? It's you who seems to be waiting for observational proof of a bearded guy in the sky. I'm talking about a transcendent consciousness that brings creation, order, and purpose to our universe.

I say whatever kind of belief is came about without any evidence is by definition unreasoned.
Certainly you do, and this only reinforces what I've said earlier. Reason and intuition are not mutually exclusive. Even though that which is eternal and transcendent logically must exist, you are refusing to acknowledge it unless it becomes material – unless its very nature is what you wish it to be instead of what it truly is. It's an insular view of the universe, like a child pressing his nose against the window of pet store and forgetting about the rest of the world around him.
RIP "littledoc"!

My MySpace Page
My Gaming PC Blog

Last edited by Mike Doolittle; 02-08-2007 at 11:44 AM.
Mike Doolittle is offline   Reply With Quote