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Old 01-28-2007, 06:45 PM   #24
Mike Doolittle
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Re: The Root of all Evil/Trobule With Atheism

Originally Posted by Nicato View Post
whether or not it is ever reasonable to believe in any god, all gods are not created equal. Some, like your "creative god" are at least compatible with the universe, but most are not; the god of Abraham is not.
I'm not really in the business of defending the Christian God. I suggest you raise the issue with Christians if you wish to discuss their specific theological beliefs.

Not good enough. If you don't have a counterargument, then the (very) least you could do is give me a specific link to such an apologist site. Making vacant deferments does not a proper rebuttal make. You say I need to do my research? Well, methinks you need to show your work. What/where is the counterargument?
All you did was post a link to a popular argument against theism. You could have posted a link to the Paradox of the Stone or any number of other anti-theistic arguments. What do you want me to do, post you a link to a Christian apologist site? Try But when you have issues with what's said there, you'll have to raise them with the author of the site. The problem here is that you're not presenting an argument; you're just telling me what someone else said.

I'm more than willing to share my views with you Nic, but it's not my job to provide you with a basic theological education. I'd be more than happy to tell you about my own perspective of God and how I think the "problem of evil" is not a problem at all, but it's not my job to defend theologies I don't agree with. The problem of evil is a great topic, but the way you "threw it out there" and presented it as though I were supposed to just say, "Oh, I guess you're right" tells me that it might do you well to spend a little more time hearing what Christians and Jews have to say about that before posturing it as some sort of bullet-proof argument.

Are you actually claiming that the onus is on the atheist to prove that your "creative god" doesn't exist? Because that is three kinds of audacious.
Of course not. There are an infinite number of unprovable things. The onus is on the atheist to justify their own faith in positivism. You simply have to be consistent with your own ideas. A self-causing and self-perpetuating universe cannot co-exist with the known laws of science.

The laws of physics exist inside a vacuum which we call the universe (mathematics, however, exist independent of our universe).
Elaborate on how mathematics can exist independently of our universe?

The issue is (A) whether or not whatever caused the Big Bang can be considered a "god" and (2) whether or not it is reasonable to actively believe in such a "god" when there is no evidence to support that belief. This is why infinite regression isn't just a handful of pink unicorns, rather an underlying problem with hypothesis of a "creative god." (More on that below.) A "Creative god" supposes planing or design when the cause of the Big Bang could have been as random and aimless as a farting bunny.
So not only do you believe in a universe that is self-causing and/or self-perpetuating, but you believe that the very fabric of spacetime, the perfect harmony of the laws of physics, the right materials needed to sustain life for billions of years, etc... are just as likely to have been brought on by an extra-dimensional fart as a creative god? That this infinitely complex world could just randomly "pop" into existence?

If that's how you feel, then I think we're at an impasse. You've chosen randomness as your god. There's a deeper issue here as well that makes me feel we're at an impasse. You are, by choice, completely closed off to the idea of the spiritual. Unless someone can lay it at your feet or stick it right under your nose as indisputable fact, you'll maintain that you have no reason to have faith. You have to have "hard evidence" of spiritual things, which is a self-contradicting concept. Since you're not receptive to the idea of spirituality, then we can only be having this conversation because you either want to convince yourself you're correct by presenting me with an irresolvable conundrum (impossible, since we're speaking from divergent perspectives), or you're simply interested in learning about faith. Since you spend more time citing popular atheistic arguments than asking questions or doing your own research, I can't assume it's the latter.

Incidentally I received a PM on another forum from someone who read my blog, and I thought it was a brilliant summation of some of the key issues of spirituality. It won't "prove" to you that spirituality is real (nothing will), but it should at least help you understand a spiritual perspective. This is what he said:

I like the concept that the material is a self-contained construct that is superficially imposed on the spiritual, which is timeless and spaceless. We, as material beings cannot perceive spiritual realities, but we can understand the "reverberations" of underlying spiritual meanings through their material representations. There is always a series of translations and distortions between the spiritual and the material. There is the argument that we are connected to spiritual realities on the highest level of our being - sometimes called the superconscious. Hence we have the human dilemma - we are largely material and evolutionary, but we have a spark of divinity, spirituality that pulls us. Therein lies the source of much of our personal inner conflict and challenge. If we were entirely spiritual or entirely material we would be at peace with ourselves. Instead, as individuals, we must constantly struggle to harmonize these two often conflicting aspects of ourselves as we evolve towards some undetermined future.
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Last edited by Mike Doolittle; 01-28-2007 at 06:57 PM.
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